0:03 Hi everybody. I'm Jennifer Perkins. I'm a marriage and family therapist and I'm 0:09 a counselor here in Australia. And I'm going to be talking today with Dr. Peterson. We're going to be talking 0:15 about um working with critical incidents and um self of the therapist. Um Dr. 0:22 Peterson, you want to introduce yourself? Sure. I'm uh Dr. Colleen Peterson. I'm 0:28 also a marriage and family therapist. I am the clinical director and assistant 0:33 professor of marriage and family therapy at Utah Valley University uh here in 0:38 Orm, Utah. Um let's see what you want to know a little bit more. I have a PhD in 0:44 marriage and family therapy as well as a master's degree in marriage and family therapy. I've been uh teaching marriage 0:50 and family therapy for over 21 years now. Um love it, passionate about it. 0:56 Um, yeah. And and the burning question on everybody's mind right now, it's 1:02 Christmas time. Do you have snow? We have snow in the mountains. Uh, like 1:07 a week ago, we had some some snow down in the valley, but it didn't stay. Oh, that's a shame. 1:15 Um, okay. So, I'm thinking that um 1:21 that we're just we're just I' I've got some questions about um some critical 1:26 incident stuff that's happened. I know that you guys were you guys just had a you guys just had a major incident 1:32 happen. Can you talk a little bit about about what happened and kind of what what your role in this was? 1:40 Yeah. So, here at uh Utah Valley University, we had a shooting of a guest 1:45 speaker here on campus, Charlie Kirk. Um that happened September September 10th, 1:52 I believe it was. Um yeah, so I was here on campus, my students were here on 1:58 campus. The the students were on a break. Um, I had just been up to what we 2:03 call the Hall of Flags, which overlooks the the courtyard where the event was 2:09 happening. I had just left uh prior to the shot going off. Um, and no sooner 2:16 got down to my office. My building where my office is is right adjacent to the courtyard. Um, and so, uh, as I was 2:24 getting to my office, we went into lockdown, um, knowing that there was an active shooter, but not knowing the 2:29 extent of the active shooter. Okay. So, as a, um, as a therapist and 2:35 supervisor, you were right in the middle of this incident. It like it happened in your space. 2:41 Yeah, it happened in our space. I had just passed three of my students. Uh, they were going the other way. Um and 2:48 then one of those students whom I had passed came down and was in lockdown with me in my office. Um so just trying 2:56 to help keep things calm. Um as as we didn't know what was going on with the 3:02 active shooter on campus. Okay, that sounds really really terrifying. Yeah, it was pretty pretty scary. Pretty 3:08 scary for the students. Um my my next door neighbor officemate um had several 3:14 students as well. Um, and our our office is is right off where the stairs come 3:20 down. So the the overlook of the courtyard, um, you have to come down 3:26 from that because it's up on the the floor above us. And so like a bunch of students were coming down. My my office 3:33 mate, she actually had some there were some high school students that um happened to be on campus and they just 3:40 pulled in with some of our students into her office as well. 3:45 Okay. So, you went through this and then you had to be the therapist and 3:51 supervisor dealing with all the students going through this. Yeah. So, I I I really wasn't in a 3:58 therapist role per se, right? I was more as a supervisor and a faculty instructor. Um but yeah, so we went into 4:07 lockdown. Um and they were just like, "Get out, get out, get out." Um, so I 4:14 piled like six or seven students into my car. I'm I have privilege as a faculty, right? Like I have parking right there 4:20 by the building, but the students were way out parked on the way other side of the building. So I was like, just just 4:26 pile in my car. I'm going to take you over there to get you to your vehicle to get you out of here as as soon as possible. 4:33 Uh, okay. So that sounds that sounds really terrifying, by the way. Um, so 4:39 you you guys you guys you're right in the middle of it. you experienced the whole thing. Um, and then you got to you 4:46 got to come back and help these new therapists get through this ordeal and 4:52 um, uh, still work in the center. Did you guys close the center down? Did they h Did you have clients coming in 4:59 and they had to like notify clients to not come into the onampus clinic? 5:05 Um, yeah. Did they have to work online or did it just did you guys give them a No. So the 5:12 university was actually closed um the university closed um for about it was closed it was tears 5:20 and it changed but it was closed down for at least those two days because it happened on a Wednesday. Um and so 5:26 initially we were just going to be closed, you know, uh Thursday and Friday, but then they extended that 5:32 period of time and did a gradual um kind of bringing things back online. So 5:38 students didn't come back till the following Wednesday, but faculty came on Monday um to try to prepare for um 5:46 having the students come back to campus. Okay. So, so you're preparing for students, but 5:53 it's also as like a supervisory role, right? You're you're preparing to how to how do we how do we help our how do we 6:00 how do we help these therapists get through this? Um, so what what were some of the things that you did? How how were 6:07 you able to, you know, what were some of the decisions that were made? How did you what was the plan that was made? 6:14 Yeah. So for us as MFT faculty um we decided that we didn't want to have to 6:22 have students talking about it in each class. So we decided that the first time 6:27 the first time in the morning when the students came back um we would all meet together and give them an opportunity to 6:33 process um what had happened be able to address that with them. Um so we have a 6:40 cohort model. So our first years are on one day on two days a week, right? And then our second years are on another two 6:46 days a week. So for both of those groups um they're and they do a morning class and an afternoon class. So the first 6:52 time that they were coming back to campus uh we met with them all of the MFT faculty and students to have an 6:59 opportunity to process their experiences. Mhm. Did you find that everybody um 7:06 everybody kind of dealt with it the same way or did you find like um like uh what 7:12 was your findings? So what we found was everybody had a different response. Um and you know as 7:19 with any trauma a lot of that is determined by their proximity to what had happened and their own kind of 7:25 trauma experiences in the past. So, we had one second-year student. So, across, 7:32 so if this is the hallway, the speaker is here. There's a building across the courtyard where the um where the food 7:39 court is housed. And one of our students had gotten something to eat at the food court and was actually walking across 7:46 the courtyard coming back to the building that afternoon class actually uh practicum supervision. And he was 7:53 actually in the courtyard when the shot went off. Um, and so for him, I would 7:59 say he probably had um some of the most adverse responses to that because he he 8:04 just started running because he was afraid for his life um and didn't have any shelter being in that courtyard, not 8:11 knowing if there were going to be more shots coming off. And so for him, he was, you know, scared 8:18 to death. he actually ran across ma the major intersection and went over to a Walmart and you know was trying to call 8:25 somebody to to come pick him up. Um and then we had other students right that had been there observing up there 8:32 in the Hall of Flags. There were others who were in the student lounge area who were eating lunch but then were funneled 8:39 into like lockdown. So a lot of different experiences with that. Um, you 8:45 know, we had some students that had extreme fear coming back, extreme anxiety even thinking about coming back 8:51 to the campus um because safety had been, you know, so jarred um by that 8:57 experience because it's our space. We I mean it's a second home so to speak for for all of us who, you know, are are 9:04 here and involved in that program. Um the other thing though that um I did 9:10 with my colleagues and not just our MFT colleagues but our social work uh colleagues was I wanted the students to 9:17 to have it be a different experience coming back to campus than when they had left. Right. Um, and so I had the idea 9:27 to um to get my colleagues and I and we went and got construction paper over at 9:33 the department office because they keep green paper. Green and white are the primary colors for UVU. And so we had 9:40 gone the the college that first day when it was just faculty and staff back on Monday. We'd gone over to the college 9:47 office because they were having a little gathering. And then we stopped by the department office and picked up uh two 9:52 shades of green paper. And then we came back and we cut hearts. 9:59 Um we put hearts all over the the entrance, the hallways, the student 10:05 lounge, down the the halls to all the faculty offices, down the hall to where 10:10 the classrooms are and in the primary classroom where where we have that. And then we also made um three large banners 10:18 um signs for the students. Um and on the one we were able to let the the faculty 10:26 and staff have messages to the students. Um and so I was in Las Vegas when we had 10:34 this shooting in Las Vegas as well. And one of the sayings that happened out of that time was Vegas strong. So, one of 10:41 the signs that we had there at the entrance was UVU strong. Oh, right. Because it was like we wanted to claim 10:48 our space back like we've been, you know, violated. And um so those were the 10:54 things that we did and it was actually the feedback that I got from several of my colleagues like it was very therapeutic for us too because in some 11:01 ways we were changing the space for us is we're trying to think about how can we be there for the students 11:08 right as as they're coming back after this pretty traumatic that's that's something that I was thinking of too while you were talking 11:14 about this that there's there's there's two things happening um um and leave it 11:20 to the behavioral health team to like understand the importance of this, right? That um 11:26 uh not not only is you know what what can we do for the you know what can we do for our students who are coming back 11:32 right what can we do for the people who have also gone through this who we have care over but also what is it that we 11:40 can do? we have to be able to do something and and so you um you and 11:46 faculty you you found something to be able to do to be able to like help through this incident because I I'm I'm 11:53 finding and I'm hearing as I as I work more with critical incident that it's important to be able to everybody wants 11:59 to be able to do something. I need to be able to do something. I need to be able to help somewhere. I need to be able to 12:06 you know give my gifts. How do I do this? And um that that was a faculty way 12:11 of how to do this which is how lovely. That's really nice to um be able to 12:17 write notes to your students and and also be able to um that's brilliant be able to change the space. 12:25 Sounds like you nailed it. The students were moved, right? And then and one of the big signs was, you know, 12:30 uh we're glad you're here. We love you. And that's the the big banner, right, 12:35 that that the faculty put notes on. And so it was right at the entrance uh to come in. One of the things that is was 12:42 also challenging um was our building is considered an entrance to UVU. Um 12:50 part of part of UVU the design is that um all of the buildings connect both for 12:56 accessibility but also in inclement weather. So once you're in the building, one of the buildings like you can pretty 13:02 much get anywhere from anywhere else. Um, and our building is considered one 13:08 of the main entrances because there's like a Oh, you first come on campus, there's a roundabout there and ours is one of 13:15 those first buildings that come off of that. Um, so we have a a wall, it's kind 13:20 of an angled wall that we put that on and the students read those messages when they first came. um which I think 13:28 was really important and and like I we weren't standing around watching that but as we were about our business going 13:34 to and from like we could see students and I saw students who were moved by it, right? Like they were in tears um 13:41 because it was like they felt that love and support without us having to be physically there when they first came 13:47 in, right? It sent a very clear message and with the hearts um the message that we were trying to to 13:53 convey is like you are cared about, you're seen, right? Um and I think that that was really helpful. 13:59 Oh yeah, that's really nice. So, so after the first few days, you've um 14:07 as a as a supervisor, you're having to work with um you're having to work with these new therapists. What were some of 14:14 the things? How were some of the ways that you helped them through this? What what were some of the things that surprised you? 14:21 Um well, one of the first things that I did is one of our social workers who um 14:26 one of our social work faculty who works with critical incidents, she does a lot with first responders. Um she had 14:33 provided us all with a um a handout of trauma responses. 14:40 Um and and as we were trying to um talk 14:45 as a faculty about how we wanted to manage that um I had said to the faculty 14:51 it's going to be really important that our students understand like what's happening with them right because 15:00 I mean although although like the irony in all of this was um the class that I 15:06 taught Wednesday morning right before the incident is an individual therapy class with a trauma focus and we had 15:13 just covered trauma um that morning and I was like they need 15:19 to understand and and be provided with just some understanding of what the normal typical responses are to a 15:26 traumatic incident like this. Um and so part of that was to provide them with 15:31 this list of trauma responses. Um, and just like helping them understand that 15:38 everybody experiences it differently and how they experience it is okay. Um, and 15:44 so we gave them an opportunity to just kind of talk about that that experience. 15:50 Um, and so most of the students spoke, right? Um, and then what was curious to 15:57 me was after we' done that, um, they asked us to share what our experience 16:04 was like and how we were managing it kind of as a way to model for them 16:10 how how to manage our own kind of trauma responses in that. Um, and so each of us on the faculty did 16:17 that. Um, wow. Was that a really honest moment? It was really honest. like it was, you 16:24 know, and and for me. So, um it was really kind of 16:30 it felt very vulnerable for me because I had my own trauma response having just 16:36 been there. So, right, like I I just missed witnessing the shooting. Um, but 16:44 then I also have my own kind of gun trauma because as a full-time clinician 16:49 when I was working in Arizona, I had a suicidal and homicidal client pull a loaded gun with me in session. 16:56 Um, and so for me, right, some of that trauma was activated for me. Um, and so 17:02 I shared that with them, right? And and part of what we really teach um our students is that right, number one, 17:09 they've got to be self-aware and monitoring themselves for their own kind of processes. Um but then they also need 17:17 to attend to that. So I talked with them about how it activated me and that I had, you know, engaged in that. I talked 17:24 about how after I dropped all the students off, I didn't want to I live 17:29 alone. I don't want to go home to an empty house by myself. And so I called a 17:35 couple of friends who are stay at home, right? They work at home or whatever and 17:40 found somebody that I could go be with. Like I didn't want to talk about it, right? But I but I just wanted to not be 17:47 alone in that because at that point we still didn't know what was going on with with the shooter um or you know what the 17:55 circumstances had been. Um so I talked about that. I talked about my, you know, how it activated my previous trauma and 18:03 that that's pretty normal, right, for that to happen. And then I talked 18:08 about that, you know, I was in the process of getting in to a therapist to do either some EMDR or some ART because 18:15 I knew I needed to clear that activation so that I could be present and um, you 18:21 know, do what I needed to do to be there for. Wow, that's um that is a really um 18:28 that's a really vulnerable story that you tell and especially to um you know 18:33 people going through this experience themselves that it's we're all just humans right we we're all just humans 18:40 having our personal story our personal experiences and we you know as therapists we often 18:48 you know like hey I got to handle this I got to handle this it's you know I can't I can't bring it into the room but everything's coming into the room. And 18:55 it it's really important to be able to, you know, have that piece of you that sees, wait a second, there's this stuff 19:02 going on. I really have to I really have to handle this stuff. It's it's it's not okay to be I I can't just say I'm going 19:09 to um you know, barrel through this. I can't just say that I'm going to manage through this the best I can. I actually 19:15 need to um sit down and talk with somebody um get some get some support. 19:20 No matter what that is, it's it's important to you're not supposed to be the strongest person on the planet 19:25 Earth. Model what you tell your clients or what you tell your supervises. 19:31 Exactly. And that's like the feedback that we got from the students was that 19:37 um that was really helpful to them, right? That we we allowed ourselves to 19:42 show our humanness, right? and to get a glimpse into how we do our self-care as 19:49 the self of the therapist, the self supervisor. Um, and they they found that very 19:55 validating, very comforting to them. 20:01 Yeah, that's that's a lot of gun violence in your history. Yeah. I mean, 20:09 yeah, there is a lot of gun violence and um I I hate guns. 20:15 Yeah. Um and so I mean, part of it for me, like after that experience with my 20:20 previous client, um my niece was married to a police officer and they'd heard my story of this and and he was like, "Aunt 20:28 Colleen, like I'm going to take you to the gun range so that you can, you know, get over this." and went to the gun 20:34 range and I and I shot his pistol one time and I was like, "No." 20:40 Right. I I don't like this. I don't like having that lethality in my hand. I just 20:46 it it it goes against who I am as a person. And he's like, "But and Colleen, 20:51 like what happens if somebody comes in and has a gun and is threatening you? Like what are you going to do?" I go, I 20:57 would rather die myself, right, than be the source of taking someone else's 21:03 life. Um, and so that's kind of that that's based on my trauma history, 21:08 right, with gun, but it's also kind of goes with my ethos and my ethics of of 21:14 value in life. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. That there's maybe more than than I should be 21:19 sharing, but it's that's for me that's all intertwined with that. 21:25 Right. But that's um that's kind of the point is everybody has a personal story 21:30 with what's going on, right? So we're we're talking specifically about the um 21:36 the gun violence and the hate crime that happened at Bondai Beach, but everybody has a story with about violence or um 21:44 hate crimes or everybody has a story about this. Everybody um we we know 21:50 somebody or we've um we've experienced something or we have clients who have experienced something. We all have we 21:57 all have a story that we could sit down and write about this about how it affects us 22:03 because it affects us. We we need to be aware of how to how to handle this well, 22:09 how to how to work well with this and not pretend like it doesn't affect us. We um we are part of this world. 22:17 Yeah. You know, and like in full disclosure, um I was uh doing my PhD at 22:23 Kansas State um when the Oklahoma City bombing happened. Um and 22:29 she's Colleen. And so, how how many disasters have followed 22:34 you? Uh and and my best friend actually was a professor uh at Oklahoma State when the 22:40 the bombing had happened. and we both had been involved in receiving Red Cross 22:46 disaster training, uh, mental health disaster training. And so we were 22:51 we were they were asking for folks to come and help. And so a a week after the bombing, we were there working with the 22:58 families. Um and it was actually we were there um 23:03 we were there the day that we were working with families when they came in to say that they were shifting it from 23:10 uh search and rescue to search and recovery. For the Australians who don't know the 23:16 story of the Oklahoma City bombings where they uh forgive me but I I they 23:21 bombed a federal building but it was also the site of a daycare. Yeah. So the daycare was right at the 23:27 front of the Mura building where the bomb went off. So there were a lot of children involved. 23:32 Okay. So those were the families that you're working with. Yeah. And and family members, right, who 23:38 had of of folks who were working in the building when happened. Um and and you know when 23:47 I so part of the reason why I'm teaching the class right on individual therapy with the trauma focus is because I have 23:54 like I have that um blue or the red cross training but there was also an 23:59 organization uh by Charles Figley called the green cross um where they were 24:05 training people to go in after these incidents and I was actually trained in that prior to the 911 incident. Um, and 24:13 so I have some familiarity with that. And when I'm talking with folks, right, it's like, um, it's like having that 24:20 capacity to hold hard things. And, you know, you're like, "Oh, Colleen, like you've been through all of this, right? 24:27 How much of this has followed you?" And it's like, "Yeah." And also like my my 24:33 personal and professional capacity to hold hard things with clients is also 24:40 bigger because of that. So, so let's let's talk about some 24:47 really practical things that a supervisor or a therapist can do when 24:54 when there's something awful that happens. Um just off the top of your head, what's 25:00 you know what's some what's some practical things to like watch out for, look out for, check into 25:07 what do you have off the top of your head? So off the top of my head, so I I t I 25:14 tend to be pretty pragmatic in my approach to things both with my students 25:19 and also with clients. And one of the things that I find really helpful for that is just helping people with some 25:25 psycho education to know like what are these common trauma responses right um 25:32 and and it was like so for instance when we provided this sheet right it's got 25:37 two sides but it's like the first one is right it's descriptions of what the mind and body may experience during the 25:44 crisis right and then like what the body mind would experience and then the 25:49 emotions and how there might be related relationship impacts following the crisis, right? Um, and then like some 25:57 information about what kinds of self-care is helpful. Um, so for me, right, it was like what we did with 26:04 these students was we gave them this handout and said, "We just want you to have a chance to look at this, right?" 26:10 And one of the things I love about psycho education is that it really normalizes the process for folks, 26:18 right? So that it's like this isn't within the realm of what we know happens when these kinds of things are are going 26:25 on. Um and like just to watch the students and they're like, "Oh wait, 26:30 yeah, that oh that explains that that I experienced or oh like I didn't realize 26:36 that you know that withdrawal response like I didn't want to talk to anybody that that was a common response to that 26:44 as well." Um and and you know that the sleep problems, right? The the um the 26:54 the impact on their digestive system, right? Like like there's all these different kinds of responses. Um the 27:01 numbing, right? Those kinds of things. And it was really helpful because then 27:06 they had some words, right, to help them begin to describe what their experience 27:13 was and how they were feeling and how they were responding. I I'm I'm also hearing you say that it's 27:21 um that it's um actually having the piece of paper is helpful, too, because you 27:28 can you can say the words, but there's sometimes a distance because people don't aren't ready to hear. But having 27:34 that on a piece of paper, something that they can look at, um, touch, um, take in 27:40 their own time, that that's that's pretty valuable. Yeah. And and there's that concrete 27:45 piece of it and it's less threatening because they're not having to look like inside totally. They're looking outside 27:51 and kind of reflecting. Um, which So handouts. 27:58 Yeah. Yeah. And then and then part of that also is I think that modeling right and 28:05 having it be an okay space. So we were actually I think I can say this we we ran a 28:13 little contrary to what the university was saying that folks needed to do should be doing with students when they 28:19 came back because the word from the top was we don't want you talking to students about what their experience is. 28:25 Oh wow. Um and like in some ways I can get that right. I can understand that because 28:32 like from like we're a small group out of a large institution. There's 46,000 28:38 students um enrolled at UVU, right? But they're not all equipped to deal with 28:44 trauma. No, no, no. A physics professor is going to talk to students in a very different 28:49 way, right? Um, and so but we knew based on our own experience, right, our own training and 28:56 our own understanding of trauma, like it was like, "No, we we got this and we're going to do this, right?" Um, and and I 29:06 think that was beneficial to our students, hugely beneficial to our students. uh being able to talk about it 29:14 especially so soon after right like their first time back on campus, right? 29:20 To be able to to have that conversation with folks, right? Like we there there 29:26 was one of us MFTt faculty that was not on campus when that happened, but the rest of us were were all here. Um, and 29:33 there like we we jokingly talk about trauma bonding, but sometimes as a negative thing, but in this situation, 29:39 right, there there was a like there was a knowing that happened that created an 29:46 alliance between us and a safety. I think that they were able to, you know, 29:52 as we were modeling talking about it, they were able to open up and share about their experience. Um, and then it 29:59 was a a nice reminder for us, right? because I I teach ethics and we we emphasize self-care throughout our 30:06 program, but they're they're trained in it specifically in the ethics class. Um, and so it was an opportunity, right, to 30:13 then have a conversation about, okay, so how do you how do you manage your trauma 30:20 response in all of this? And what does that look like for your self-care? Does that look like, hey, you know what, like 30:26 the university is providing uh resources for mental health. Does that mean if you 30:32 don't have your own therapist like taking advantage of that? Um and also just really encouraging them like that 30:39 what we know with trauma is the sooner you right you process that um the 30:45 greater the chance that those lingering impacts of it are going to be impacting you. 30:50 Okay. So, um, so I hear you saying that if if, um, if there's a, um, like an 30:57 agency situation, uh, like you're working in an agency, um, that you want 31:02 to have the you want to have the space that the therapists are able to talk about the situation that's affecting 31:09 them. um maybe get um maybe maybe turn that um supervision, you know, that 31:16 group supervision into um a um like a place of support, a place to talk about 31:22 this thing specifically. Let's let's hold off on client cases. Let's this is 31:27 how we actually support the therapists. Yeah. So, it was interesting, right, because we have a um an onampus 31:34 community clinic that our students see clients in. And initially the the admins were like, 31:40 "Hey, like let's have your students be seeing these other students that have been impacted by it." And we're like, 31:46 "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." Like, no. Like, these need those the 31:52 other students, right? The other UVU students, they need to find those resources out in the community. our 31:58 students who have been impacted by this themselves are not in a place they're they're too beginning 32:04 to to be able to know how to manage that or do that. And so we felt pretty protective of our student therapists. 32:11 We're like no like they if they feel like they're ready and you know they're okay to 32:17 continue to see the clients that they already have with their those presenting problems like that's okay. Um, but we 32:24 also as supervisors, right, in our practicum settings and our group supervision settings, we had to start 32:30 being mindful because it it w it impacted the community too. So even if they were seeing clients that were not 32:37 students at UVU um or who were not on campus for the 32:42 event, right, there's that that broader impact on the community. So we had to work with them uh to help them prepare 32:49 too, right? But how do you manage your own stuff if your client's coming in and talking about it? 32:56 Right? That's so great question. How do you manage your own stuff? 33:01 You asking me personally, for you personally, well, h how would you how would you help somebody if they're asking? I mean I for me 33:08 personally right and that's what I try to um again model for the students is I 33:14 talk about um having to have a way to compartmentalize your own stuff 33:20 right so it's like um and and for me I talk about that it starts with that awareness 33:26 right um and so uh for instance I'm going to I'm going to shift to a different topic right but 33:33 it's like for me I'll talk about um grief and loss, right? And I'll talk 33:39 about if if we have our own history of grief and loss and we're in a session talking with a client about grief and 33:45 loss and we find oursel thinking about or feeling something related to our own. It's like you got to be able to 33:52 recognize that, right? And I talk about for me, right? It's like I'd be like, "Oh, Peterson, there's your grief and 33:59 loss related to your father's death. It's coming up. Got to put it over here. 34:04 Come right back to the client. It's like I'm putting it over here. I got to deal with that tonight. Obviously, I've got 34:10 some more work to do on my stuff, right? But then coming back to the to the client to be able to stay focused on 34:16 that, right? I kind of I kind of look at that as in in the room, I I sort of see 34:22 myself looking at the room and at the client and at myself and being like, "Oh, whoa, that's a little bit of a 34:28 surprise. I didn't see that happening." All right, stick that aside. You got to do something about it. recognize that 34:34 with a meta stance, right? And it's like, whoa, this is right. It's all happening, 34:40 right? Sorry. 34:45 No, I interrupted you. So, as we're as we're talking about practical um practical things that we 34:54 want um as supervisors um that that we want to be helping our 35:00 um supervises with or or us going through it ourselves, um 35:07 I'm hearing it's that that peer support is really important that um Oh, absolutely. 35:13 Yeah. finding finding the time to make room for that and encouraging encouraging your people to to um get 35:21 with that. Yeah. So, one one of my colleagues here um had also been at um in Las Vegas when 35:29 the the mass shooting in Las Vegas happened. Um, and she actually um had uh 35:39 had a referral source for clients that were entertainers in Vegas who had 35:45 actually been at the event. Oh no. So she saw a lot of clients who had been 35:51 impacted by that. Um and so for her like she was activated 35:57 um very very strongly and um and to to be 36:03 honest right like a lot of folks don't know how to manage trauma like there's 36:09 been a lot of like emphasis in the last probably 10 to 12 years right on this traumainformed care that's not just in 36:16 mental health but you know in the schools and other places as well. Um, 36:22 and so there's a lot of that, but in in some ways, I don't want to be disar 36:27 disparaging of our institution. Um, but they didn't really do a good job 36:33 like they were so focused on the students that they didn't really acknowledge or take care of like 36:40 helping, okay, of the the faculty and staff, 36:45 right? Um and and so um we happened to 36:50 have a faculty meeting already scheduled that day when we first came back. We'd 36:56 had like a meeting with um with the president of the university and the 37:02 provost. Um and they like skipped over us and went straight to taking care of 37:08 the students and it really activated my colleague. Um and then we went into a 37:14 department meeting and um and you know our our dean and our department head 37:21 were awesome. Um, but they're like, "How can we be supportive of you?" Which it was like, "Okay, cuz we were like, we 37:28 don't feel supported." And so then they were like, "Okay, how can we be supportive of you?" And I I sat next to 37:34 my colleague who was very activated and I just put my hand on her back, right? 37:40 Because it was like she was like all the flooding, right, was just present. Um, 37:48 and then so, um, she provides on-site supervision in the clinic 37:54 and and she's like, I can't I can't do that. And I was like, I got you. Like, you you won't I I'll cover that for you, 38:02 right? Like, I have the capacity to provide that on-site supervision. You go 38:07 take care of you, right? And I think that's really important, right? That we recognize our own 38:13 limitations like you alluded to earlier, right? Like we like to think that we're super human and that we've got to do 38:19 this and take care of things, right? But it's like it's that piece of being there and relying on colleagues 38:26 when it's like like I think I'm maxing out right at my capacity to do this and 38:31 for us to be able to then support each other in that. Yeah. Right. And I also I also see you 38:37 saying um the importance of watching out for others, right? because um 38:45 sometimes we don't know where our limits are. And it's so and it's nice for people to come in and say, "I I got you. 38:52 I I I can do this. You don't you don't have to say yes to everything or you don't have to agree to this. I um I'm 38:57 I'm I can see you're struggling. I got this." Exactly. Okay. So, um I got I got four I got four 39:04 practical suggestions and and we probably have a couple more. So, um Okay. a concrete handout. Um, get the 39:12 peer support started. Um, watch out for others. Um, and no one recognize your 39:18 own limitations. Got any you got anything else you want to add to this? Yeah, and I think part of that too is uh 39:26 helping to create an atmosphere where it's okay to talk about it, right? Um 39:33 because what we know is right everybody has their own trauma response and it 39:38 shows up in different ways and in different times. Um and so if there's an expectation, right, like oh like hey 39:45 like this is two weeks past like you should be past this like no like 39:50 whenever you recognize or see it or feel it right and that may happen in a 39:56 different time and in a different way for everyone and allowing space for that 40:01 to be I think is really really important. Okay. So then 40:06 it's okay not to be okay. Yeah. Okay. 40:12 And and to to ask for help, right? Yeah. I like Right. So creating the 40:18 creating the culture of um of it's okay not to be okay and and ask for help. 40:24 Right. So So that colleague, right? So she I covered two nights for her and she 40:29 thought I'm going to be okay the next week and then she came in and and something else was triggering, you know, 40:36 and she's like ah I this surprised me like I thought. Right. So, she'd done an EMDR session and and had felt like she 40:43 was cleared and ready to come back and then there was something that happened at work that was triggering. And when 40:50 she even just started to say like, "Oh, this surprised me." I'm like, "Let me let me cover you another night." Right. 40:56 Oh, wow. Wow. Um, and we just we just have a few more minutes. Um, 41:03 I'm I'm wondering if um wondering if you want to if there's if there's anything else. uh any other sage wisdom cuz 41:12 you've been through quite a few stuff, right? A a lot of the major catastrophes including 911. You were at the 41:17 university during 911 as well. um as as we're working with our 41:23 colleagues and in agencies um as well as supervising people, what are the you 41:29 know, is there anything else that we want to know about critical incident um response and um ourselves and supervises 41:43 or colleagues. I I think that 41:49 for me it really just comes down to um maintaining a therapeutic presence. 41:58 Okay. So, I think about I think about being with um those families at the 42:05 Oklahoma City bombing when they were um they were told that they may because of 42:11 the way the blast was, they may not have any remains at all, right, for for a funeral for their love. 42:20 And it was like I don't have anything to offer them, right? There's nothing in 42:25 that moment that I can can say or do to make it better. All I can offer is me 42:33 bringing my whole therapeutic self there to be present and and to hold that um 42:40 and to create a space where if they feel like they want to talk about it, they 42:45 can do that in a way that's um that's going to be helpful to them. And that's really 42:52 I I mean there's all kinds of things that you can do, right? Like you could do some EMDR to minimize some of the the 42:59 responses, but but I think um based on my experience, it's just like 43:06 they can know and tell if you're there and willing to hold that space with 43:11 Right. Right. without being intrusive, right? were asking a lot of questions like um and 43:18 just being there. Okay. Right. So like who are you as the witness? 43:23 Exactly. Not very sage. Not very 43:30 No, it's it's it's pretty sage because that is the essence of the work that we do. We can have a huge toolbox of of all 43:38 these things and all these techniques that we've learned, but really it's who we are and who who how do we show up as 43:45 that witness um with that trauma um and be in attunement with with what's 43:53 needed and and can that person is that person experiencing the attunement? 43:59 Yeah, that's that's really lovely. Thank you so much for um for joining me. I 44:06 really appreciate uh you sharing your experiences and um talking about like 44:12 what was helpful. My pleasure. Anytime, Jen. Okay. Thanks.